Random slew of Civil War feelings
May. 9th, 2016 01:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cloudsinveniceI saw the movie! I'm just going to bullet point everything that comes to mind because coherent reviews are some way beyond me at this point.
- Everyone gets to do really kick-ass stuff, though some of the editing for the fights was of the annoying jerky cut variety that R finds physically hard to watch. It seems like it's half stylistic and half to cover for stunt doubles/effects/whatever.
- PEGGY. :( :( :(
- I thought it was much more coherent than Age of Ultron, though the recruitment-of-Peter-and-Scott scenes stopped things dead in the middle. It makes no earthly sense that Tony, given 36 hours, spends 24 of them bringing Peter in. It's also iniquitous as fuck given that there's a good chance that a) as a young (how old is he meant to be - are we talking 18-year-old whizkid, or even someone who, like Tony, was at MIT while still a minor?) MIT student whose work Tony just funded, he'll worship Tony and follow him anywhere, and b) it's the kind of mission one might not come back from. I don't mind the iniquitous-as-fuck part; that feels in character, but it's worth noting in terms of how ruthlessly Tony will pursue what he's decided must be the right approach to things.
- The goofy embarrassing fanboy bit with Scott was kind of meta-embarrassing, but I was surprised by how much I enjoyed him in the fight - I haven't seen his movie but his powers made things really interesting, and even though I'd been spoiled for the Giant Man thing (by a Lego set, naturally) it was really impressive and convincing. The old move-them-slow-and-they-look-big trick never fails.
- I found everyone's stance on the Accords believable, but I'd have liked to hear more about why some of them chose as they did - there's a moment when Falcon and Rhodey are arguing about it but then the camera cuts away and we hear them in the background but it's unclear what they're saying. Since they're both career military but have ended up on very different paths before joining the Avengers, I would've loved to hear why they each felt as they did. What was it about Sam's military experiences that made him uneasy about the Accords? What was it about Rhodey's that made him think they were the right choice?
- I could believe in Natasha's perspective (particularly the bit when she told Steve that what mattered was that they were together) but I found it a bit OOC when she kept being all smug and sarcastic after the team had split. At the end of the film Tony quips about her previous experience as a double agent - are we supposed to believe (based on her holding back T'Challa to let Steve and Bucky escape) that she was secretly on Steve's side (apparently so secretly that Steve was unaware of it) all along and just waiting to figure out a way to resolve things in a pro-Steve way? I find it more likely that she had complex feelings about it all to begin with and worked her way round to "letting them escape in this instance is the right thing to do" at the end, but the double agent theory would explain her odd behaviour earlier, i.e. she was trying to seem totally on Tony's side (in which case, for a spy, she's a terrible actor).
- I love Tony's "let me casually show you my high-tech therapy machine and bare my soul in public" thing; that is the most Tony's Strange Choices In Dealing With His Mental Health thing ever. I had a lot of feelings. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in, etc. etc. etc. That said, I wasn't keen on the CGI-young-RDJ thing - it took me a moment to process it and then it was just weird as hell, also because we can have two different actors playing Howard at different ages, but apparently we MUST have RDJ as young Tony because... he must be in every corner of the franchise?
- That said, I have to admit that this might be my favourite of RDJ's performances in these movies. I really like how sweaty and uncomfortable Tony acts when he brings the secretary of state/defence/whatever in to see the Avengers - that uncharacteristic nervous, guilty hanging around in the background while he leaves the other guy to lay down the Accords for them. His whole emotional arc in this movie is essentially the same as in IM1 - he gets confronted with the individual, personal impact of his actions and his response to the guilt is self-righteousness. But there's a lot of self-righteousness going on with Steve, too - when he says that their hands are the best hands I just think, "Really, Steve? Really?"
- Okay, so the super soldier serum must be one of the most powerful, valuable substances in the MCU, right? So why on earth is Howard driving this stuff around in the boot of his car alone, with no armed escort, and indeed a car that appears completely un-armoured? Where was he taking it? Who was it intended for, considering that it's already in infusion bags? Why does he have Maria with him if this is a mission? And how do HYDRA know about it?
- I liked Wanda's character development and her hanging out with Vision, though it sucked that Vision turned out to be keeping her under house arrest. As with Peter, I realised that I have no idea what age she's meant to be - someone makes a comment to her like, "If you want to sulk, go to high school," which makes me think she's meant to be in her late teens or very early 20s.
- I hate how things ended up for her and the others on Team Cap. Now, I get why Tony doesn't spring them from that prison when he went there - he doesn't want Ross to know that he's having doubts and intends to go after Steve himself. (R asked if that made any sense since Tony was going after the other super soldiers and could've done with all the Avengers he could get, but I'm not sure that Tony knew about the other super soldiers at that point; it seemed more like he tracked Steve and Bucky down and found out that way.) But since he knows he was wrong at the end of the movie, why is he content to let them languish in jail, where we know Sam got beaten up?
If he's just meant to be massively hypocritical, then that's fine, because I can absolutely believe that he'd go, "Well, I can break the law because I'm Me, but others have to pay the price!" - that's essentially been Tony's schtick since day one of superheroing. But it plays oddly after his shocked reaction to seeing how badly Sam's been beaten and it makes him more of a dick than seems strictly necessary. Or does Tony have to leave them there so that Steve (whose movie it is.... nominally) can get the final frame and the good-guy glory of springing them?
- I understand the fandom is in itself in a state of civil war over Sharon. Well, I thought she was okay in this movie; I found the kiss a little 'obligatory moment of romance', but there were enough hints in this and TWS that such a thing might happen at some point. It's really quite boggling to look at the gaps between the comics and movie versions of CW... the emphasis and context are so different that it really feels like what they did was to take the title and the idea of Steve and Tony on opposing sides of an ideological and then literal battle. Maybe that's for the best; I feel like the original story is so sprawling and so dependent on a) the specific huge nature of the comics universe, and b) Steve and Tony having an actual decades-long friendship as brothers in arms, that you can't really expect to get the same effect in the context of the MCU.
- I did really enjoy it despite all the nitpicking; it felt much more coherent and satisfying than AoU, which really felt more like the set-up for the Infinity War movies than anything else.
ETA: Someone on FFA caught an interview with the writers. Again, SPOILERS: http://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/195638.html?thread=1072564278#cmt1072564278
- Everyone gets to do really kick-ass stuff, though some of the editing for the fights was of the annoying jerky cut variety that R finds physically hard to watch. It seems like it's half stylistic and half to cover for stunt doubles/effects/whatever.
- PEGGY. :( :( :(
- I thought it was much more coherent than Age of Ultron, though the recruitment-of-Peter-and-Scott scenes stopped things dead in the middle. It makes no earthly sense that Tony, given 36 hours, spends 24 of them bringing Peter in. It's also iniquitous as fuck given that there's a good chance that a) as a young (how old is he meant to be - are we talking 18-year-old whizkid, or even someone who, like Tony, was at MIT while still a minor?) MIT student whose work Tony just funded, he'll worship Tony and follow him anywhere, and b) it's the kind of mission one might not come back from. I don't mind the iniquitous-as-fuck part; that feels in character, but it's worth noting in terms of how ruthlessly Tony will pursue what he's decided must be the right approach to things.
- The goofy embarrassing fanboy bit with Scott was kind of meta-embarrassing, but I was surprised by how much I enjoyed him in the fight - I haven't seen his movie but his powers made things really interesting, and even though I'd been spoiled for the Giant Man thing (by a Lego set, naturally) it was really impressive and convincing. The old move-them-slow-and-they-look-big trick never fails.
- I found everyone's stance on the Accords believable, but I'd have liked to hear more about why some of them chose as they did - there's a moment when Falcon and Rhodey are arguing about it but then the camera cuts away and we hear them in the background but it's unclear what they're saying. Since they're both career military but have ended up on very different paths before joining the Avengers, I would've loved to hear why they each felt as they did. What was it about Sam's military experiences that made him uneasy about the Accords? What was it about Rhodey's that made him think they were the right choice?
- I could believe in Natasha's perspective (particularly the bit when she told Steve that what mattered was that they were together) but I found it a bit OOC when she kept being all smug and sarcastic after the team had split. At the end of the film Tony quips about her previous experience as a double agent - are we supposed to believe (based on her holding back T'Challa to let Steve and Bucky escape) that she was secretly on Steve's side (apparently so secretly that Steve was unaware of it) all along and just waiting to figure out a way to resolve things in a pro-Steve way? I find it more likely that she had complex feelings about it all to begin with and worked her way round to "letting them escape in this instance is the right thing to do" at the end, but the double agent theory would explain her odd behaviour earlier, i.e. she was trying to seem totally on Tony's side (in which case, for a spy, she's a terrible actor).
- I love Tony's "let me casually show you my high-tech therapy machine and bare my soul in public" thing; that is the most Tony's Strange Choices In Dealing With His Mental Health thing ever. I had a lot of feelings. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in, etc. etc. etc. That said, I wasn't keen on the CGI-young-RDJ thing - it took me a moment to process it and then it was just weird as hell, also because we can have two different actors playing Howard at different ages, but apparently we MUST have RDJ as young Tony because... he must be in every corner of the franchise?
- That said, I have to admit that this might be my favourite of RDJ's performances in these movies. I really like how sweaty and uncomfortable Tony acts when he brings the secretary of state/defence/whatever in to see the Avengers - that uncharacteristic nervous, guilty hanging around in the background while he leaves the other guy to lay down the Accords for them. His whole emotional arc in this movie is essentially the same as in IM1 - he gets confronted with the individual, personal impact of his actions and his response to the guilt is self-righteousness. But there's a lot of self-righteousness going on with Steve, too - when he says that their hands are the best hands I just think, "Really, Steve? Really?"
- Okay, so the super soldier serum must be one of the most powerful, valuable substances in the MCU, right? So why on earth is Howard driving this stuff around in the boot of his car alone, with no armed escort, and indeed a car that appears completely un-armoured? Where was he taking it? Who was it intended for, considering that it's already in infusion bags? Why does he have Maria with him if this is a mission? And how do HYDRA know about it?
- I liked Wanda's character development and her hanging out with Vision, though it sucked that Vision turned out to be keeping her under house arrest. As with Peter, I realised that I have no idea what age she's meant to be - someone makes a comment to her like, "If you want to sulk, go to high school," which makes me think she's meant to be in her late teens or very early 20s.
- I hate how things ended up for her and the others on Team Cap. Now, I get why Tony doesn't spring them from that prison when he went there - he doesn't want Ross to know that he's having doubts and intends to go after Steve himself. (R asked if that made any sense since Tony was going after the other super soldiers and could've done with all the Avengers he could get, but I'm not sure that Tony knew about the other super soldiers at that point; it seemed more like he tracked Steve and Bucky down and found out that way.) But since he knows he was wrong at the end of the movie, why is he content to let them languish in jail, where we know Sam got beaten up?
If he's just meant to be massively hypocritical, then that's fine, because I can absolutely believe that he'd go, "Well, I can break the law because I'm Me, but others have to pay the price!" - that's essentially been Tony's schtick since day one of superheroing. But it plays oddly after his shocked reaction to seeing how badly Sam's been beaten and it makes him more of a dick than seems strictly necessary. Or does Tony have to leave them there so that Steve (whose movie it is.... nominally) can get the final frame and the good-guy glory of springing them?
- I understand the fandom is in itself in a state of civil war over Sharon. Well, I thought she was okay in this movie; I found the kiss a little 'obligatory moment of romance', but there were enough hints in this and TWS that such a thing might happen at some point. It's really quite boggling to look at the gaps between the comics and movie versions of CW... the emphasis and context are so different that it really feels like what they did was to take the title and the idea of Steve and Tony on opposing sides of an ideological and then literal battle. Maybe that's for the best; I feel like the original story is so sprawling and so dependent on a) the specific huge nature of the comics universe, and b) Steve and Tony having an actual decades-long friendship as brothers in arms, that you can't really expect to get the same effect in the context of the MCU.
- I did really enjoy it despite all the nitpicking; it felt much more coherent and satisfying than AoU, which really felt more like the set-up for the Infinity War movies than anything else.
ETA: Someone on FFA caught an interview with the writers. Again, SPOILERS: http://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/195638.html?thread=1072564278#cmt1072564278
no subject
Date: 2016-05-09 08:09 am (UTC)Yes, I enjoyed the film more than AoU. I really enjoyed TWS because it turned out to be Bucky. Not read many of the original comics but I had heard about the Steve/Bucky bromance years ago so CW was right up my street as far as their relationship goes. Really liked the final battle between Steve and Tony, allowing Bucky time to attempt an escape. I say Steve and Tony not Cap and Iron Man because it was very personal: elements of personalities and ideals forged at different periods of US history causing the rift between them. Cap represented the old US hero fighting against a tyrannical state versus Tony's acceptance of personal resonsibility not being enough.
Not sure about Black Panther at the start. All I could see for a long time was a butch Catwoman! I warmed to him.
Antman is a fun film; try and catch it.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-09 10:47 am (UTC)Yeah, I liked T'Challa - would've liked more about his powers but I came home and googled so that took care of that. I liked how they let him be the one to sum up at the end the fact that it had just become a cycle of vengeance for everyone and and he was going to have to step out of that cycle because he could. It sets up a more statesmanlike sense of him that forms a good introduction to what I hope we'll see more of in his own movie: him as king and superhero having to deal with his country's problems on both levels.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-09 12:20 pm (UTC)I kind of agree about the shoehorning in of Spiderman mostly because I felt like even though he is clearly powerful and bright, he is also naive. I did like his child-like enjoyment of hanging with the Big Boys though and I prefer this kid over the other Spidey incarnations. He sort of reminds me of Anton Yelchin in his Checkov role and I can't help but like him.)
I also like how the franchise is addressing all the peripheral damage that has occured as a result of the world-saving ...a thing that is addressed in more depth in the series Jessica Jones. The idea of the Accords is, on the surface at least, the sort of thing one would expect because there are lot of people whose families have been damaged or completely destroyed as a result of the battles. Entire bulidings smashing to the ground look pretty amazing as far as effects go, but acknowledging the fallout from the Avengers kicking ass.
The team being divided because of it goes a far way in showcasing the different ways the team appoached these matters. Both Tony & Steve reacted perfectly in character (with one as stubborn as the other). And their conflict battle was painful to watch Man, RDJ has such eloquent eyes - When he realizes that Steve knew about how his father and mother were killed (in the easily attacked Lincoln Town Car?)the welling of tears and the hurt you could see ...damn. (I really do love RDJ.)
Oh, and Stan Lee at the end looking for Tony Stank? Loved it!
no subject
Date: 2016-05-09 05:54 pm (UTC)He reminded me a LOT of Kamala Khan and it just hit-home how badly she needs her own movie. And then she can team up with Spidey and they can geek out over the Avengers. ;)
I thought both sides were IC and the choices made sense. I did miss what Vision said about the Accords because a baby was crying in the theater and the asshole parent didn't take their kid outside. I HATE THAT. Why? I know it's fucking mother's day, but that doesn't mean you get to ruin movies for everyone. Sorry. Anyhow. RAWR.
I did want to slap the shit out of Tony, but his motivations for picking the side he did and then having a freak-out over his parents made total sense.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-11 08:20 am (UTC)We had a couple who brought two really young-looking kids, I'd say six and four or five, and I was a bit uneasy, particularly with the torture bit where someone is getting dunked upside down in water to make them give information. It felt like a "just because you can bring 'em doesn't mean you should" situation, but idk, I'm not their parent and maybe those kids have seen worse and won't have nightmares about the part where Steve looks like he's actually considering beheading Tony with the shield. At least they were quiet and well behaved!
no subject
Date: 2016-05-11 08:17 am (UTC)And YES. RDJ's eyes. I blame them for my purchase of a lot of DVDs, what can I say.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-09 05:59 pm (UTC)I didn't get the impression Nat was secretly on Steve's side. She thought the Accords were a good idea, but she also knew that Steve wasn't going to let the world be in danger when he could stop it, so she made a choice to let him go. They're all still friends, after all. This was sort of shown with the Clint/Nat fight where Panther says one of them is pulling their punches and they're both like "We're still good, yeah?" It's a disagreement but that doesn't mean Nat can't see both sides. I think it was pretty dickish for Tony to imply she was a double agent all along. I don't think that's true. I think she's just friends with both of them and knows how Steve is.
I thought it was awesome the way T'Challa was such a good constrast to Steve/Tony. He went from being hellbent on vengence to seeing what that could do to you, and grew a lot as a character in one film. Pretty great. I look forward to a Black Panther movie.
My favorite part was easily the bromance/hatemance between Bucky and Sam. (TEAM SAM WILSON!) "Can you move your seat up?" "NO!" Ha!
no subject
Date: 2016-05-11 08:25 am (UTC)I've seen people talking about how the differences between Nat and Steve are actually more emotionally compelling than those between Tony and Steve, because Nat and Steve have had a really well-established friendship in the series so far. Tony's "So was I," line at the end doesn't quite land because he's responding to Steve saying Bucky is his friend, and you just can't compare what Steve and Bucky have had with the often antagonistic, wary-mutual-respect-with-caveats thing between Steve and Tony...
I feel like Black Panther will bring something really new to the MCU. We've had a hero who is an influential, public man before in Tony, but T'Challa is a king and a statesman and that's a unique position to be in, particularly since his superhero role is cultural and indivisible from where he comes from, rather than something he had to invent in the wake of getting powers, like it is for most heroes.
And I loved the Bucky/Sam stuff to bits! :D